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Author
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Topic: 6.8x43mm SPC Rifles
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DocGKR
Moderator
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posted 10-08-2003 02:15
  
This was publicly unveiled at the AUSA meeting:  The PRI 6.8 mm upper is also quite nice:  As can be seen from the 100 yd, 5 shot group below, fired from of a Robinson Arms 6.8 mm with one of the incredibly accurate Mike Rock barrels, the 6.8 mm offers outstanding accuracy:  IP: Logged |
Livo
Member
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posted 10-08-2003 06:01
I know that information about the new cartridge is still very restricted, but are the claims of the 6.8mm's incapacitation ability compared to the newer 77 grain 5.56mm ammo accurate or not?IP: Logged |
Obiwan
Member
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posted 10-08-2003 07:42
Is it all still restricted.Or does this mean we can talk about it now. IP: Logged |
urbankaos04
Member
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posted 10-08-2003 09:49
Price for either upper? Existing magazine compatibility with 6.8mm ammo? Thanks.IP: Logged |
DocGKR
Moderator
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posted 10-08-2003 12:31
Trajectory falls between 5.56 mm and .308 and is substantially flatter than 7.62x39 mm.Recoil and controllability are on par with 5.56 mm and 7.62x39 mm. Terminal performance of the 115 gr Hornady OTM exceeds that of it’s “little brother”, the Hornady 75 gr TAP and approaches that of it’s “big brother”, the Hornady 155 gr TAP. Costs of 6.8 mm weapons are similar to 5.56 mm weapons of equivalent quality—you would need to contact the individual vendors for exact prices. 6.8 mm rifles weigh the same as their 5.56 mm counterparts. 28 rounds of 6.8 mm fit in magazines the same size as 30 rd 5.56 mm mags. Ammunition weights are obviously different, as the following comparison illustrates: 30 rounds of 5.56 mm M855 weigh about 0.8 lbs, while both 28 rounds of 6.8 mm and 20 rounds of 7.62 mm M80 weigh roughly 1 lbs. Personally, I would gladly give up 2 rounds and 0.2 lbs per magazine compared to 5.56 mm for the significantly superior terminal performance of the 6.8 mm. IP: Logged |
tonylfi4
Member
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posted 10-08-2003 12:48
Doc,do you know who the vendors are or will be? I emailed Barrett but have not yet heard back from them. thanks, tony IP: Logged |
AR15Fan
Member
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posted 10-08-2003 14:26
Interesting. I'll be holding out for more basic uppers. I want a flat top, chrome line brl, with a fixed front sight and flash suppressor. No free float rail, flip sight, or Ops brake for me.Also waiting on the magazine capatability issues too. If It wont feed releibly from an M16A2 mag, then I cant use it. Those sexy new PRI mags are restricted LE/Govt use only. IP: Logged |
Stan
Member
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posted 10-08-2003 17:11
How's the optic working for you?IP: Logged |
DocGKR
Moderator
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posted 10-08-2003 17:44
Great optic! Thanks for the tip. We are also running them on some of the 18" M1A's. Are you in CONUS? If you are around, I will be at Pendleton on 10/27 to give a briefing. Take care.IP: Logged |
tonylfi4
Member
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posted 10-08-2003 19:25
Spoke w/ woman who answered phone @ barrett; after a brief hold, she came back on the line and said "check out our website in two weeks."apparently uppers will be at least pictured there, whether or not they will be available she didn't say. tony IP: Logged |
Livo
Member
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posted 10-08-2003 20:21
Are there any plans to have the upper receiver replace the direct gas system with a gas piston, like the G36, or is that out of the question?Also, roughly how accurate is/will the 6.8 be out of a barrel intended for military use? It seems very promising, lets just hope the brass don't end the project in favour of the XM8 :/ IP: Logged |
urbankaos04
Member
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posted 10-09-2003 01:54
Will these uppers ever be offered with barrels more akin to "mil-spec" barrels (chrom lined, anodized finished), instead of the stainless steel barrel pictured? AR15Fan: I also agree with you on the magazaine reliability issue. IP: Logged |
DocGKR
Moderator
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posted 10-09-2003 08:06
Perhaps this has not been made clear--the 6.8 x 43 mm SPC can be easily adapted to ANY weapon firing 5.56 mm. It will work in an AR15, M4, M16, Robinson M96, G36, XM8, Sig 550/551/552, FNC, F2000, Galil, SCAR-L, etc... The 6.8mm works perfectly in an AR18/G36/XM8 type of direct gas system with a gas piston.BTW, I saw a couple of 6.8mm AR's depicted at: http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum56/HTML/000586.html ------------------- The 6.8 mm is not in competition with the XM8--in fact, the XM8 is an ideal platform to shoot the 6.8 mm, as the basic AR18/G36 internals used in the XM8 run very well—clean and reliable. HK has a good team working on the XM8. I would fully support a 6.8 mm XM8, although, as I have mentioned before, I would like to see the following modifications to the XM8 as currently depicted: Ditch the useless carrying handle (hint, there is a reason why the M4/M16 no longer have carrying handles…), get rid of the integrated optic/laser in favor of modular options that can be mounted to a flat-top full-length rail at 12 o’clock or on accessory rails at 3, 6, and 9 o’clock, install flip-up front and rear BUIS, use a M4/M16 style selector instead of the less ergonomic HK type, make sure the charging handle and plastic furniture is more durable than on the G36. While the 9” barrel is not too versatile, the 12” and 16” options are great, and perhaps the 20” option makes sense for certain roles; whatever barrel length is chosen, it is important to integrate the suppressors into the design from the beginning, rather than trying to add them on later. IP: Logged |
VLITT
Member
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posted 10-09-2003 09:40
Doc,You mentioned the 6.8 fits in magazines of the same size, are you saying you can use .223 ar mags? IP: Logged |
Shawn Dodson
Member
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posted 10-09-2003 14:46
6.8x43mm SPC Rifles?! Any info about ammo availability?IP: Logged |
Opsguy
Member
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posted 10-09-2003 16:16
You mentioned the M96 and showed about as good a group as it gets. I have an M96 Recon. Who does the conversion? The barrel change I presume is the easy part, so I need to get a new bolt group?Thanks
Dave IP: Logged |
DocGKR
Moderator
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posted 10-09-2003 20:37
Existing 5.56 mm magazines can easily be modified to shoot both 6.8 mm and 5.56 mm, using a new follower and slight modification to the feed lips. Since the magazines can still shoot 5.56 mm, they are still BATF legal. When modified this way, a typical GI 30 rd 5.56 mm mag will take 25 or 26 rounds of 6.8 mm. FWIW, all of our initial SPC testing was done using existing 5.56 mm magazines, NOT the new 28 rd PRI 6.8 mm specific mags.
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Our 6.8 mm Robinson had a Mike Rock barrel and the bolt conversion was done by the very talented, experienced, and patriotic man who designed the SPC. I suspect Robinson Arms will probably have a 6.8 mm option available in 2004, perhaps for the M96, VEPR, RAV02, or SCAR-L prototype.
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Ammo availability is relatively limited at the moment. Hopefully the supply will be plentiful by early 2004. I suspect the more orders are placed, the more will be made.[This message has been edited by DocGKR (edited 10-09-2003).] IP: Logged |
medicjim
Novice
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posted 10-10-2003 11:00
OK, I'm new here and don't want to piss in everyone's wheaties, but...-Comparing the accuracy of a Mike Rock SS barrel to a mil-spec, chromed, mass produced AR barrel is not a fair comparison. I have several Mike Rock barreled rifles and they are the most accurate, efficient barrels I have ever shot. -This short, fat, slow round is likely not going to have the long distance legs of a 77 gr sierra from an M16A2. Never trust published BCs, there are many different, non-standard ways to determine BC, they are not apples to apples unless collected on both rounds using the same technique. -Terminal ballistics is not an exact science but... does anyone recall how many folks survived hits from the beltway sniper? The ANECDOTAL accounts from Somalia of M855 passing through skinny dudes at 200 yards fails to take into context the massively lopside odds in that encounter, the desperate ammo situation and the use of 11.5 inch barrels on some of the weapons. If you take that all into context, I think we might have heard the same thing if those guys had 338 Laupa equipped rigs. I sure as shit would have wet myself had I been there. I am flat out saying I find dubious the classified nature of this round's wounding characteristics while all other military rounds are open source... and I believe they were open when the evaluations were being made for the current crop of NATO standard loadings. I can see two opportunities realized in this new approach.... #1 - barrels will likely wear out slower given similar construction vs a weapon firing the 77gr 5.56 round... (note - bean counters rarely mention this type of consideration when chosing the "best round" to get the job done... heck, how many bean counters will be at risk if the round doesn't work as reported?) #2 - If you took this new cartridge and put a lighter, sleeker 6mm HPBT projectile into it, I think we might end up with a long range killer of unparalleled ability. I have visions of an M4 barrel swap or upper swap option for Afghanistan type engagements. In the end, this is just my $.02 IP: Logged |
scottjimenez
Member
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posted 10-10-2003 11:54
medicjim,do a quick search on the person who posted this thread. you should find his quals in the earliest posts. recommended procedure for this forum is to read all the posts from the beginning to get the lay of the land. the reason should be apparent after a couple hours of interesting reading.
[This message has been edited by scottjimenez (edited 10-10-2003).]
bah, i'll just make it easier: http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000002.html
[This message has been edited by scottjimenez (edited 10-10-2003).] IP: Logged |
medicjim
Novice
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posted 10-10-2003 12:54
Scott,I assumed we had some capable folks on board. Do ya' figure my points are any less valid as a result? Do you advocate that folks go in harms way on blind faith and impressive titles? [This message has been edited by medicjim (edited 10-10-2003).] IP: Logged |
scottjimenez
Member
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posted 10-10-2003 13:01
medicjim,more information on this cartridge and why the data is closely held is also available here after a quick search. this thread is just adding to that information. note that the 6.8mm development is a joint work between the USmil and commercial ventures. there are issues at play there. edited to respond that this cartridge is not available yet, nor is the equipment. so one cannot yet take it into harm's way. apparently, there will be a commercial release and then all should be revealed. [This message has been edited by scottjimenez (edited 10-10-2003).] IP: Logged |
medicjim
Novice
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posted 10-10-2003 13:15
I understood your points before posting. I have noted that I am repeating some of the good Doctors observations...albiet arrived at independantly... I will not post again until fully caught up.My main point is that a short range, low barrel wear equation runs contrary to what may be needed. If this round performs comparable to the 5.56 at 100 yards, but doesn't have the legs to reach out and kill (accuracy and impact) BETTER at 500, what has been gained? The M16A2 coupled with 77 gr ammo is lethal... [This message has been edited by medicjim (edited 10-10-2003).] IP: Logged |
CANADIAN_TACTICAL
Member
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posted 10-10-2003 13:50
I have seen some info and gel tests of both rounds. The 6.8 in the three bullet weights tested outperforms the 77gr Mk262Mod1 (which is the best performing 5.56mm) [as long as one discounts the 100gr...] I have some concerns with interoperability etc. as do some others until a conventional and NATO shift.
(DocGKR knows who)
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medicjim
Novice
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posted 10-10-2003 13:54
Canadian.If this bullet is shot downrange and it's velocity measured at 100, 200, 300, 500 and 800 yards, and then compared to the 77 gr sierra loading, can you comfortably state that based on the gel tests you have seen, it exceeds the performance of the 77 gr sierra? How well does it buck wind at 600 yards? [This message has been edited by medicjim (edited 10-10-2003).] IP: Logged |
Stan
Member
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posted 10-10-2003 18:57
Buck wind at 600, funny.I shot service match before too, and making pretty holes at six, has nothing to do with terminal ballistics at the this range. The concensous of trigger pullers I know, want a user friendly platform, and to be able to smack from 0-400. Four plus, give me a MK11 or better a WinMag. The non-release of propietary information is due to IP & adoption issues. We all know how the military ends up screwing companies doing RDT&E. [This message has been edited by Stan (edited 10-10-2003).] IP: Logged | |
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