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Author
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Topic: .40 glock kabooms
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mdwest
Moderator
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posted 05-20-2003 22:15
   
Doc Roberts or any others who may have pertinant data,are their any reports, studies, etc.. available about the problems/issues related to the .40 glocks "kabooming"? apparantly there was a series of guns that blew up a week or so ago in at a small agency (three in total).. one officer was injured... our chief has gotten wind of this and thinks its ammo related (they were shooting 165gr federal hi-shok i believe).. anyway.. he is looking for info as we issue glock 22's and 23's... i know the basic story (glock .40's blow up with a greater frequency than most other firearms), but dont have any of the particulars to offer him... ------------------
Stay Safe and Win at All Costs!
Dave West
Legion Security Consulting
Legion Forums [This message has been edited by mdwest (edited 05-20-2003).] IP: Logged |
mdwest
Moderator
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posted 05-20-2003 22:20
found the particulars of the incident.... with it being 3 in 1 range session this incident seems to be ammo related rather than weapon related... i would still like to find info on the weapons issues as well though.....
The following safety advisory was received on 05/17/03 from NLETS (National Law Enforcement Telecommunication System). It's editted.
Warren Co. Sheriff's Office(TN) reports that on 05/16, while training at the range, 3 deputies were injured when 3 separate G22s exploded in their hands. Ammunition used at the time was Federal Classic 155gr. HI-Shok JHP (Lot #2-42W262 or 2-42N262). 1 deputy was taken to the hospital for minor injuries. ------------------
Stay Safe and Win at All Costs!
Dave West
Legion Security Consulting
Legion Forums IP: Logged |
bobthebuilder
Novice
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posted 05-21-2003 09:46
I love they way these stories get blown out of proportion. On many of the websites that love to beat up on glocks are having a field day jumping on this. They are so quick to blame the gun for the problem when it’s obviously an ammo related problem.I am sure that anytime the Glock Kaboom story rears its ugly head again in future cyberspace conversations that people will point to this incident and say “I told you glocks where no good”. What uneducated people they are!
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DocGKR
Moderator
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posted 05-21-2003 10:39
Actually, the problem IS with the pistol. The design of the disconnector on the Glocks allow them to fire with the slide slightly out of battery--this is a more significant problem with higher pressure cartridges. Other .40 S&W pistols, especially ones made of steel or designed from the ground up as .40's rather than merely being modified 9 mm's, do not suffer from this same problem. Notice that 2 seperate lots of ammunition are involved. There have been other incidents of multiple Glock failures, last year's failures at an AZ PD come to mind, as do 3 or 4 recent failures at a Norcal police academy. FWIW, if Glock modified the disconnector the out of battery failures could be significantly reduced.[This message has been edited by DocGKR (edited 05-21-2003).] IP: Logged |
Mad Dog
Moderator
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posted 05-21-2003 13:03
Ditto again, Doc.I have personally witnessed two brand new Glocks, a 22 and a 23, blow up using factory Winchester ammo that was running fine in the Sigs and BHPs shooting alongside the two Tupperguns that KB'd. The Glocks have a lot of unsupported chamber area, and in the .40, this is a real problem, compounded when the guns are not entirely in battery. IP: Logged |
sparky315
Member
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posted 05-21-2003 15:23
Doc and Mad Dog are right on. I've been a Glock armorer for the last 7 years and work on many LE pistols. There are problems with the Glock design, and they are prone to KBoom, especially the .40's. Luckily we don't issue Glocks in .40, we issue the 21 and 19. The 19s run without a problem. The 21s break ejectors and locking block retaining pins with some regularity. No KBooms for our guns as of yet, buy other agencies in my area have had many problems with their 22s and 23s. Friends who teach at the state academy tell me that Glocks in .40 and 357 Sig have more problems than any other issued sidearm, and frequently don't make it through the class without some sort of parts breakage.Most Glock handguns have chambers with insufficient case support. Couple that with their ability to fire out of battery and you have a problem. My Glock 20 (the only Glock I own now) routinely bulges cases slightly, but the 10mm case is much stronger in the web area than the .40. I had been thinking about buying a G36 until I saw how much metal they had hogged out of the feed ramp/chamber to get it to feed. Frankly, I can't believe they can sell those things in good conscience. IP: Logged |
USMC03
Member
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posted 05-21-2003 21:16
mdwest / Doc,
Can you gents post the info that you have pertaining to the problems with the .40 cal Glocks over on the Law Enforcement Only board. It would be greatly appriciated.
Thanks,
Jeff
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cconatvz
Novice
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posted 05-23-2003 16:46
I've personally witnessed (sp?) one case head separation with mexican factory ammo fired from a CZ .40. It produced a rather nasty stopage. I swear I was trying to find the extractor when the freak cleared the stopage and started to shoot again. There was no evident damage to the gun. Note to myself...get a CZ .40!!!About this particular incident, I think the ammo could have been damaged during its storage or manipulation, despite that it originally came from different lots. I've always wondered if it's possible to know even a rough number of glocks vs other manufacturers handguns sold in the US. If the cartridge design is at fault, then the manufacturer with the greater number of guns out there is going to have more incidents. If we can judge the number of guns sold looking at their respective internet comunities, I have to think that there are more glocks that anything else out there. IP: Logged |
jnc36rcpd
Member
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posted 05-24-2003 17:48
Our county law enforcement agencies are transitioning to the Glock 22. Because of concern over these KB's, the PD's safety committee contacted the Warren County range staff.The three deputies who experienced detonations had all just reloaded from a freshly opened case of ammunition. They were the only ones who loaded from that case and the only three to experience detonations. The deputies felt that the rounds they had just loaded seemed to have greater recoil than usual. Warren County has used Glock 22's for eleven years. If you check the lot numbers given in the teletype, you'll notice that the rounds came from one lot. It appears that the lot number could not be read clearly and that one character could have been either "N" or "W". It appears that a problem with the ammunition contributed to these detonations. That said, I'm no armorer. I'll listen to the counsel of those wiser and more experienced about Glock design problems (and continue to carry my SIG).
Be safe. [This message has been edited by jnc36rcpd (edited 05-24-2003).] IP: Logged |
Snowman92D
Novice
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posted 05-25-2003 15:34
It's important to keep the slide rails well-cleaned and lubricated on all semi-auto pistols, especially the Glocks.
I'm sure some of you recall Glock instructors telling transitional trainees that they didn't have to worry about lubing the slide rail areas on their newly-acquired Glocks...that the gold-colored grease put on the rails by the factory would take care of that permanently. Not!
Clean, well-lubed slide rails are an important factor in insuring that the slide tracks all the way forward and fully into battery during the firing cycle. The two kB's my agency had several years ago involved a bad lot of Federal .40 caliber ammo and pistols with dirt-encrusted, poorly-lubed slide rails.IP: Logged |
DBK
Novice
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posted 05-25-2003 16:09
I guess we are lucky. My agency has about 500 G22/23's. In three years, we haven't had a single problem. I know cops don't shoot, but I'm an exception. There are 8 Glock 40/45's in my possession. I cracked one pin, one time, on a 22C.
I have loaded over 15,000 cast lead rounds and FIRED them through said Glocks, without a single problem. (The pin was broken using 40 cal 180 gr Blazer ammo).I've only seen one Glock kb. A G21 went boom. I guess with my "luck", I should be playing the lottery...... IP: Logged |
Rob Haught
Member
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posted 05-25-2003 18:22
I also have witnessed a couple of Glocks fire out of battery in the past few years, all in .40. Today at a local IDPA match I witnessed a new shooter using a High Point pistol, ( dont know if they even have a model number ) in 40 cal detonate and a piece of barrel chamber hit the range officer in the face and break his shooting glasses. Ammo was Wolf brand FMJ. All in all the worst possible combo of cheap gun and cheap ammo. Luckily no one was injured.IP: Logged |
JDaveG
Novice
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posted 05-27-2003 07:53
quote:
Originally posted by Snowman92D:
It's important to keep the slide rails well-cleaned and lubricated on all semi-auto pistols, especially the Glocks.
I'm sure some of you recall Glock instructors telling transitional trainees that they didn't have to worry about lubing the slide rail areas on their newly-acquired Glocks...that the gold-colored grease put on the rails by the factory would take care of that permanently. Not!
OUCH! I've heard Glock retailers say to leave the bronze lube in until it "shoots out," but I have never heard anyone say that it was "permanent" for lubrication purposes. Even with the retailers' advice, I always take a good solvent and remove that gunk prior to shooting. I lube it as per Glock's recommendation with a conventional lube. IP: Logged |
JDaveG
Novice
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posted 05-27-2003 07:56
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Haught:
I also have witnessed a couple of Glocks fire out of battery in the past few years, all in .40.
All Glocks can, by design, fire out of battery. For some reason, the .40 seems more prone to failures in this regard, I'd guess due to higher chamber pressure. The .45 Glocks tend to be problematic, too, I'd guess due to "load it 'till the case mouth splits" reloading practices common to .45 shooters (myself included, until recently). The one failure I've seen with a Glock was a G23 in .40 which failed due to bullet setback with a reload. The shooter reflexively did a "tap/rack" drill when the round didn't chamber, and apparently the next round got its bullet pushed back into the case. It bulged the barrel, but the pistol contained the damage. The gun is now up and running with a new barrel. Some aren't so lucky. IF you shoot a .40 or .45 Glock, be careful, particularly if you reload. It CAN be done safely, but you do have to be extra careful. IP: Logged |
BrokenArrow
Member
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posted 05-27-2003 10:55
Why are Glock 40s, 45s, 357s doing this more than the Glock 9s do or ever did? 9x19 loaded to CIP/NATO/+P+ specs is as high/higher pressure than the 40/357.If it's not the guns, why are the ammo companies messing up the 40, 45, 357 more than they ever did the 9? Didn't Federal have some truoble w .40 brass a few yrs ago? Was this ammo with the "old" brass (marked FC?) or the "new" brass (marked Federal?) Still see a lot of the old stuff around... All the local ranges, indoor/outdoor, public/private/LE have seen more blown .40s/357s than 9s, more Glocks blown more badly than other brands. ------------------
Mike >>>>-----> [This message has been edited by BrokenArrow (edited 05-27-2003).] IP: Logged |
AK74
Novice
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posted 05-30-2003 14:03
Lots of misinformation here...."Glocks can fire out of battery" - nonsense. One poster claims that "The design of the disconnector on the Glocks allow them to fire with the slide slightly out of battery--this is a more significant problem with higher pressure cartridges." Well, having been a Glock armorer for several years now for TWO LE agencies, and a USMC armorer before that, no where have I ever seen a Glock with a "disconnector" that was non-Class 3. Nowhere in my Glock armorers manual does it list a disconnector. Perhaps he meant the trigger bar upright. Glocks do have connectors.... Not trying to start a flame war, but the problem is and always has been ammo/shooter related. The design of the Glock prohibits a properly functioning gun from firing out of battery. The problem in the case with the TN department, more than likely was cartridge projectile setback, a condition in which duty ammo, routinly submitted to chambering and loading/unloading, the projectile "slips" back, seating it in the case slightly lower than originally specified for - consequently causing MUCH higher chamber pressure, especially in the case of the .40 S&W, which more "KBs" have happened lately than any other round with any weapon. Seems there are tons of cases of "reported" firing out of battery, but I say BS. There is no proof of such an event on a properly working Glock pistol. If any Glock certified armorer has pictures and documentation to the contrary, I challenge you to produce it. This myth has perpetuated itself long enough. ------------------
Cover your six....
DEO VINDICE! IP: Logged |
JDaveG
Novice
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posted 05-30-2003 15:14
quote:
Originally posted by AK74:
Lots of misinformation here...."Glocks can fire out of battery" - nonsense.
I'll certainly stand to be corrected, but if I reset the trigger on my G19 and pull the slide back slightly (i.e., "out of battery"), the trigger pull will drop the firing pin. Now, I've never had a problem due to this, but the design allows it to happen. Same with my G30, BTW. If you'll tell me why the gun does this and why it does not constitute "firing out of battery," as I said, I'll gladly retract my statement. IP: Logged |
JRT6
Member
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posted 05-30-2003 15:55
Maybe it's not called a "disconnector" but it doesn't change the fact glocks can fire slightly out of battery regardless of whether indoctrinators at the glock armorers school said so or not. [This message has been edited by JRT6 (edited 05-30-2003).] IP: Logged |
Mad Dog
Moderator
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posted 05-30-2003 19:42
AK74,
I double dog dare you to stare down the barrel of a loaded Glock slightly out of battery and pull the trigger.
Please post the results.IP: Logged |
AK74
Novice
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posted 05-30-2003 22:28
quote:
Originally posted by JDaveG:
I'll certainly stand to be corrected, but if I reset the trigger on my G19 and pull the slide back slightly (i.e., "out of battery"), the trigger pull will drop the firing pin. Now, I've never had a problem due to this, but the design allows it to happen.Same with my G30, BTW. If you'll tell me why the gun does this and why it does not constitute "firing out of battery," as I said, I'll gladly retract my statement.
Tested that with my G17, and many G22's, and have never seen it happen. Once the forward edge of the barrel is engaged on the slide, the gun IS in battery BTW. ------------------
Cover your six....
DEO VINDICE! IP: Logged |
AK74
Novice
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posted 05-30-2003 22:29
quote:
Originally posted by JRT6:
Maybe it's not called a "disconnector" but it doesn't change the fact glocks can fire slightly out of battery regardless of whether indoctrinators at the glock armorers school said so or not. [This message has been edited by JRT6 (edited 05-30-2003).]
Got any proof of that? Or is it yet another internet myth?
I bet MYTH.... ------------------
Cover your six....
DEO VINDICE! IP: Logged |
AK74
Novice
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posted 05-30-2003 22:30
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dog:
AK74,
I double dog dare you to stare down the barrel of a loaded Glock slightly out of battery and pull the trigger.
Please post the results.
MAD DOG - I double dog dare you to POST some PROOF of your accusation, rather than have me "disprove" it....
I know it cannot happen, if it were so, do you think a company as large as Glock would sell a product that was "Unsafe"? Hell no, the liability suits alone would have put them out of business by now....
------------------
Cover your six....
DEO VINDICE! IP: Logged |
Mad Dog
Moderator
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posted 05-30-2003 23:31
I double dog dared you first.
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AK74
Novice
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posted 05-31-2003 09:12
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dog:
I double dog dared you first.
As I thought, you have no proof....
Besides the fact that doing something that STUPID with ANY firearm would be a completely unsafe act... It's easy to make assumptions, but hard to back them up, eh MAD DOG?
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Cover your six....
DEO VINDICE! IP: Logged |
John Hollister
Member
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posted 05-31-2003 11:22
I'm a Glock Armorer (who the Hell isn't  ), Glock Advanced Armorer, I work with (among other firearms) close to 200 Glocks at work. I'm also a factory trained Armorer for seven other companies.I own Glocks, I carry Glocks, Hell the majority of the pistols I have are Glocks. The following are my observations and experiences. * Can a Glock fire out of battery? Any pistol can if there is a malfunction. * Does a Glock, by design, fire out of battery. No. * Can you pull the slide slightly back ever so slightly, get the barrel to drop just a hair and pull the trigger? Yes. * So doesn't that mean it "Out of Battery"? The barrel is still locked into the slide. The cartridge is still fully in the barrel. Extraction has yet to begin. The round has cammed ever so slightly and will most likely cause an off center primer hit. This off center primer hit may or may not discharge the round. More then likely, it will not. Most other designs do EXACTLY the same thing. * Does the Glock design incorperate a "Disconnector"? Of course it does. Silly ass question. You may call your Penis a "Winky", but it still does exactly the same things as everyone elses "Penis". Just because you can't find something labeled "Disconnector" on an exploded view parts picture doesn't mean the design doesn't encorperate one. The Glock design does encorperate something called a "Connector" (see a similarity there?). There is a little finger on the top side. This finger (for lack of a better term) has a function. Crack open a Glock and look under the slide. Remember the area that had the Copper colored grease (anti sieze compound) on it when you got the pistol new? If not, hold the slide upside down in front of you, barrel away. Look at the left side of the slide, just left of the firing pin lug. That ridge that comes out and goes back is what "DISCONNECTS" the Connector from the triggerbar. Example. With the slide off your frame, reset the trigger. The end of the triggerbar is sitting against the angled face of the connector. If you were to pull the trigger, your triggerbar rides the edge of the connector, moving the kickup of the triggerbar rearward (like it would "cock" the firing pin and drops off the drops off the Drop Safety, moving down to release the firing pin. OK, reset the trigger again. Hold the frame in your left hand and have a pen or small screwdriver in your right. Push the finger of the connector to the left, just like the disconnecting hump would do if the pistol were out of battery. (Note - You may have to push hard) Now notice that the triggerbar is no longer in contact with the connector . . . it has been "D I S C O N N E C T E D". Now pull the trigger, notice that the trigger bar did not drop, it couldn't ride the face of the connector down, meaning it could not release the firing pin, meaning it can not fire. Hope that helps (Flame away) John [This message has been edited by John Hollister (edited 05-31-2003).] IP: Logged | |
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